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Spinning World (5) Which Way do Feelings Spin?
Red Tailed Hawk
metanymous wrote in metapractice
http://metapractice.livejournal.com/442475.html

Which Way do Feelings Spin? Posted: 21 May 2015 11:42 AM PDT

I have just posted a 9-minute demonstration to YouTube




of the Spinning Feelings process, excerpted from my online streaming PTSD training.

http://steveandreasptsdtraining.com/membership-signup/

I learned this process from Nick Kemp some six years ago...

http://realpeoplepress.com/blog/some-great-new-methods

...who credits Richard Bandler for discovering that feelings spin, and that reversing this spin is a powerful intervention for resolving anxiety and other strong feelings. After exploring the internal visual and auditory experience of clients’ experience that generated feelings, Nick modified Bandler’s process in several ways.




In this particular example, Joan became anxious in any situation in which she felt alone and potentially helpless. Joan’s feelings of anxiety began in the right side of her neck, went down the right side of her body, then clenched in her stomach and went on to her groin. This is the path of the feeling. Then I asked her to notice the shape and color of the feeling, and finally, “Which way does the feeling spin as it goes along this path?” She responded with a gesture, which is much less ambiguous than a verbal “clockwise” or “counter-clockwise,” since that depends on which way the clock is facing.

Then the intervention is to “Put yourself in that situation that elicits the feeling, and reverse the direction of spin, change the color to a color you like better, and add sparkles to it, and find out what happens.” Joan’s feelings immediately changed to relaxation and comfort. Then we tested this change in her imagination in several contexts, there was an “in vivo” test the next morning when her car wouldn’t start, and again a few days later when she drove home alone across the desert.

Follow-up a year and a half later confirmed that the change was intact, despite a number of significant life challenges that previously would have made her anxious.

In a video that has been recently posted on YouTube, Bandler works with two women with anxiety in a 50-minute session.



He uses a lot of hypnosis, and a wide variety of interventions; one of which is his version of the Spinning Feelings process that is markedly different from Nick Kemp’s version in two important ways:

Bandler assumes that the feeling has to circle back on itself in a closed loop.
When he speaks of spinning, he means spinning along the path of the loop, in contrast to spinning around a path that is not a loop.

Here is a verbatim transcript of Bandler’s elicitation from Lynn, starting at 6:20:

Bandler: Notice where in your body you begin to feel the fear. . . . Where does it start?
Lynn: It starts in my arms and across my shoulders.
Bandler: It starts in your arms and shoulders, and then where does it go?
Lynn: Um, my head.
Bandler: It goes up to your head; and then?
Lynn: My vision starts to go.
Bandler: Your vision starts to blur?
Lynn: Yeah, and my legs start to go.
Bandler: And your legs start to— And when you say “go,” they don’t actually leave.
Lynn: They start to go like jelly.
Bandler: “Start to go like jelly.” And then does it just disappear, or does it circle back on itself?
Lynn: It just stays there—
Bandler: It can’t just stay there; nerves habituate.
Lynn: —until I actually slow down or stop [driving 30 mph].
Bandler: If you have a feeling in a nerve, if it just stays in one place, then the nerve can’t feel; it has to circle somehow.

Bandler then repeats his assertion that the feeling has to circle four more times (for a total of six times) until finally at 9:02 Lynn gestures in a circle out from her chest, down and in at her stomach. This gesture is quite different from the sequence she provided earlier: neck and shoulders, up to her head and eyes, and finally legs.

I have elicited the path of a feeling of anxiety in many clients, but without assuming that the feeling goes in a circle, and not one of them spontaneously reported that it went in a closed loop. It seems likely to me that Bandler’s finding that the feeling goes in a loop is installation, rather than elicitation. Perhaps a few people have anxious feelings that go in a closed loop, but it is certainly not common if you don’t assume it.

Bandler’s intervention with Lynn is also quite different, starting at 15:02: “I want you to close your eyes, and I want you to see the speedometer coming up, only as it does, I want you to take the very feeling that you have, the one that goes like this (gesturing in a vertical circle in front of him) and as you notice the feeling beginning to spin, I want you just in your imagination for a moment, pull it outside of yourself, flip it upside down, and pull it back in, so that it spins in the opposite direction.”

This is a very different intervention than the modification that I learned from Nick Kemp.
The direction of spin will only reverse if the flip is in the left/right plane; if the flip is in the plane of the loop, it will continue to spin in the same direction. So Bandler’s instruction is ambiguous; depending on the client’s understanding of “flip it upside down” the spin might not reverse—though “spins in the opposite direction” is clear and might overcome the ambiguity.

Despite all the many other interventions that Bandler made in the 50-minute session, including a lot of hypnosis, it is not evident to me that either woman got a useful change. Bandler did ask Joy to say hello to a cameraman, but it is not clear to me that this was an adequate test of her fear of going up to someone and talking to them. “Hello” is only the beginning of talking to someone. Other than that, there was no testing in imagination, and no follow-up information was provided. Even if we assume that these women did get resolution of their fear, there is no way to determine which of the many interventions during the 50-minute session made that possible.

A somewhat similar method, “dynamic spin release”...



...developed independently by Tim and Kris Hallbom in 2008, also presupposes that the feeling moves somehow—sometimes from one place to another, sometimes spinning in one place—and reversing the direction of spin is a key part of their way of working, which varies considerably from one client to the next.

In this particular demonstration their intervention also involves a lot of hypnosis and other processes that are mixed with content: transforming it into a gesture with the hands, taking the feeling out of the body, pushing it away, suggesting that the problem state explode, a healing gift is going to appear, open up the gift, have it fly around the universe with angel wings, (The client showed up that day wearing a Levi jacket with gigantic angel wings embroidered on the back. Kris asked her why she had angel wings sewn on the back of her jacket, and she replied, “Oh, these are my angel wings and they take me wherever I go.” This is a utilization of that information.) collecting healing energy from the universe, reach out with your hands and bring all those healing resources back into your body, etc. The woman’s nonverbal shifts indicate that she got a change, and follow-up reports a profound change in a particularly traumatic history, but again it isn’t possible to know which of the many interventions were responsible for the change.

When I learned the method from Nick, it was also embedded in a lot of hypnosis and other interventions, which is fine in client work — You may as well give it all you’ve got, particularly if you don’t have a specific process that you know will work. However, I wanted to find out how much could be done with reversing the spinning feelings alone, so I stripped it down to its bare essentials, sometimes even leaving out the change of color and the sparkles, to verify that the spinning is the essential change. Changing the color and adding sparkles amplify the intensity of the change, but are not essential. (In another video demonstration



I deliberately left out the sparkles, because the client reported that the feeling of anxiety was like “fireworks,” and I didn’t want the intervention to include anything that was similar to the fireworks in the problem state.)

In the streamlined process I use there is only the presupposition that the feeling starts somewhere and goes somewhere else, that it has a shape and color and spin — and the unstated implication that reversing the spin and color will reverse the kind of feeling generated. The result is a very rapid and effective method that is easy to learn and teach to others. And since it stands alone, you can easily confirm that it works even when it isn’t augmented by other interventions.

Since I don’t see clients on a regular basis, I have little opportunity to try out the different ways of spinning feelings described in this post (and demonstrated in the videos). I invite readers to experiment with these different ways of eliciting the movement of a troubling feeling and intervening, and I would be very interested in hearing what you discover.

Related resources from Steve Andreas:

The PTSD Training – a complete online course in effective methods for resolving the many aspects of Complex PTSD.
http://steveandreasptsdtraining.com/membership-signup/
Releasing PTSD: The Client sessions – a complete demonstration of working with a client with PTSD.

http://releasingptsd.com/membership-signup/


  • 1

ЕСТЕСТВЕННАЯ ИНДИВИДУАЛЬНАЯ ВНУТРЕННЯЯ СТРУКТУРА дан

PTSD is complex.
A single method isn't sufficient to resolve most Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. In this online video training, you'll learn complete treatment protocols for the phobic response of terror and the nightmares and flashbacks many PTSD sufferers experience. You'll also see demonstrations, discussion, and protocols for related problems that are so often a part of “complex PTSD”: guilt, grief, shame, anxiety, hypervigilance, anger/rage, and critical internal voices which often trigger these responses. In all, 16 different methods are taught in this program, helping you cleanly sort and resolve all the aspects of PTSD that your clients present. This may very well be the most comprehensive and useful training for resolving PTSD ever developed. You can go straight to the order button, or keep reading....
http://steveandreasptsdtraining.com/membership-signup/


Что-то, чем дальше в лес, тем менее мне нравится дух/методология разработок Стива Андреаса.

(1) Никто не будет отрицать комплексной природы PTSD. Из этого факта Стивом делается прямолинейный вывод - надо противопоставить комплексному(1) синдрому PTSD некий внешний комплекс(2) методик/техник.

Но, между тем, принципы моделирования психических антиресурсов /психопатологии (которые, кстати, были прежде четко сформулированы самим же Стивом) противоречат такому "современному" повороту его мысли:

Моделирование в НЛП* Стив Андреас © 1999
http://metapractice.livejournal.com/35123.html?thread=511283

(2) Но, логика метапрактикового моделирования человеческой активности требует в отношении комплексного синдрома PTSD искать его ВНУТРЕННЮЮ СТРУКТУРУ(3)

Термин "внутренняя структура" предполагает локализацию "внутреннее" по отношению к "внутреннему миру" конкретного субъекта, который страдает от PTSD.

(3) Вышесказанное справедливо в отношении ЛЮБОГО комплексного антиресурсного синдрома, которым страдает субъект.

(4) Отсюда, ведущую роль в терапии любой комплексной проблемы/антиресурса играют техники выявления ЕСТЕСТВЕННОЙ ИНДИВИДУАЛЬНОЙ ВНУТРЕННЕЙ СТРУКТУРЫ данной проблемы/антиресурса.

И ежели таковых прямых техник нет в наличном терапевтическом репертуаре нет, то следует с этой целью использовать (приспосабливая) любые другие техники.

Ну а в метапрактике - мы вопросом первоочередного нахождения естественной индивидуальной структуры субъективных проблем/антиресурсов по жалобам клиентом были озабочены в достаточной мере. В итоге, для этого у нас существует специальная техника Турбо-психо Анализ (ТпА):

Моделируем психоанализ (5) Онтология психоанализов
http://metapractice.livejournal.com/436252.html
психо турбо анализ
https://blogs.yandex.ru/search.xml?text=%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B1%D0%BE+%D0%BF%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%85%D0%BE+%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B7&ft=blog%2Ccomments%2Cmicro&server=livejournal.com&author=metanymous&holdres=mark

(5) Тогда, общий план терапии в свете поднятых вопросов будет выглядеть следующим образом: жалобы субъекта -> определение индивидуальной внутренней структуры жалобы (ИВСЖ) -> последовательно применяемый набор техник, выбранных в соответствии с ИВСЖ.

Моделирование в НЛП*

Моделирование в НЛП*
Стив Андреас
© 1999
Содержание статьи
Общие принципы
Модели
Описательный и инструктивный язык
Технология
Методология
Методология и технология
Эпистемология
Общий/конкретный
Создание/применение
Ваш проект моделирования
Введение
А. Как начать
Б. Что моделировать
В. Как действовать дальше
Литература
http://www.steveandreas.narod.ru/modeling_NLP.html
http://metapractice.livejournal.com/35123.html?thread=511283


Есть ли у кого-то само содержание статьи? А то, коренная ссылка не открывается.

Edited at 2015-05-24 08:07 pm (UTC)

Re: Моделирование в НЛП*

Ага, увидел. Спасибо.

Different Ways to Spin Feelings: A Discussion with Rob Voyle

In response to my last blog post, Rob Voyle...

http://www.clergyleadership.com/faculty/faculty.cfm

...sent me an email with great detail about his experience in using the Spinning Feelings process that may explain why some people have found closed loops, while others have found spirals. His comments stimulated a number of thoughts and responses in me, the kind of collegial exploration that I love, and that happens all too seldom in the field. For readability, I have made this into a dialogue between us, which Rob has checked over and approved.

Rob: I have been “spinning feelings” since you demonstrated it briefly in Winter Park some years back (2009). I ask people, “What direction does it travel, where does it begin and where does it go to.” (What’s its path)? Most people have no trouble with this question.

Steve: Sometimes, as in my example with Joan...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXNRdASZTk0

...it may take some exploration to realize the path is somewhat different from what they originally noticed.

Rob: When I ask, “What color is it?” many people say “I don’t know,” to which I promptly respond, “Close your eyes and take a look. What color is it?” Everyone has been able to report a color. My tone is quite definite, similar to Andy Austin’s when he gets people to close their eyes and tell him what they are standing on in a metaphor of movement elicitation.

Steve: You can also use the “As if” frame, “If it had a color, what would it be?” or simply “Give it a color.”

Rob: Then I ask, “Which way is it spinning — clockwise or anti-clockwise? Sometimes they will demonstrate it spinning with a finger; other times not. Again if they don’t know, I ask them to close their eyes and have a look. I don’t concern myself with whether it is clockwise or anticlockwise from my or their perspective, it is simply their reference point so they can spin it in the opposite direction. It may be ambiguous to us but it does not seem ambiguous to the client.

Steve: Good point. I want to know for myself which way, and occasionally this might be useful to remind a client if they forget.

Rob: Then I tell the client, “Now set all that aside for a moment. When you think of that situation, what would you like to be feeling?” (calm, assured, peaceful, confident, etc.) “Now remember a time when you felt that feeling in the past at some time.”

Steve: This is relying on the client’s conscious mind to choose the desired feeling. Often it will be fine to do this, but I prefer to just find out what happens spontaneously, because their conscious mind may make a poor choice guided by beliefs or “shoulds.”

Rob: Then I ask, “And what color is that?” Then I get them to spin the feeling the other direction, and allow it to turn from the first color to the second color. I don’t add sparkles. That takes care of the physiological component of the anxiety, which sometimes is enough.

Re: Different Ways to Spin Feelings: A Discussion with Rob Voyle



Steve: I suggest you try adding sparkles; most people love it. In that Winter Park...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9dDsn1Ka9g

...demonstration you mentioned, I deliberately left out sparkles, because she described the anxiety feeling as being like “fireworks” which often includes sparkles, and I didn’t want to say anything that might describe the problem state. Of course someone could always have a problematic response to sparkles; hopefully they would express this, either verbally or nonverbally, so one could adjust.

Rob: My usual approach though is to follow it with, “What do you have to hear to be anxious?” which I call a negative mantra that evokes the anxiety. I resolve it as I would a critical voice, or using a visual version of Nick Kemp’s tempo shift.

http://realpeoplepress.com/blog/some-great-new-methods

With regard to the spinning, after intervening I have asked people more details about the direction of the spinning. Some report that the feeling was corkscrewing along the path, others that it is a loop, as Bandler suggests. It doesn’t seem to matter how the spinning is occurring. It is enough that they know and they can spin it the other way. I’ve found that trying to determine all that during the session just creates confusion and is irrelevant, I just need to know that the client knows their experience.

Steve: Interesting. Again, I like to know which it is out of my own curiosity — and haven’t found it creates confusion. But I have been assuming that it corkscrews along the path. I’ll try your way and see what I find.

When my client in the video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXNRdASZTk0

... is talking about what she says to herself, over and over again, she rotates her hands in a vertical closed loop in front of her at 3:57. So it may be that clients represent the spinning of the words in a closed loop, but the spinning of the feeling in response to the words spirals along a path that isn’t a closed loop. If this is so, it might resolve the apparent discrepancy between different reports that I pointed out in my previous post.

Rob: My own reflection on why it works is that many people, when anxious, report they are “spinning out of control” or some other description that includes spinning. People who are in a panic will often flap their hands (“in a bit of a flap”) and their hands flap in a slight circle. As an experiment in a couple of cases I have asked someone to “flap anxiously,” watch what direction their hands were flapping, and then ask them to flap them in the other direction. Instantly the anxiety feeling dissipates. So if your world is spinning out of control just spin it the other way.

Круговые глазодвигательные стратегии

With regard to the spinning, after intervening I have asked people more details about the direction of the spinning. Some report that the feeling was corkscrewing along the path, others that it is a loop, as Bandler suggests. It doesn’t seem to matter how the spinning is occurring. It is enough that they know and they can spin it the other way. I’ve found that trying to determine all that during the session just creates confusion and is irrelevant, I just need to know that the client knows their experience.

Направление вращения ВЧ в одном из вариантов задаются так называемыми "круговыми" глазодвигательными стратегиями:

круговые стратегии
https://blogs.yandex.ru/search.xml?text=%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%B5+%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B8&ft=blog%2Ccomments%2Cmicro&server=livejournal.com&author=metanymous&holdres=mark



Edited at 2015-08-03 11:56 am (UTC)

Круговые и спиральные временные линии

... is talking about what she says to herself, over and over again, she rotates her hands in a vertical closed loop in front of her at 3:57. So it may be that clients represent the spinning of the words in a closed loop, but the spinning of the feeling in response to the words spirals along a path that isn’t a closed loop. If this is so, it might resolve the apparent discrepancy between different reports that I pointed out in my previous post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXNRdASZTk0


Забавно, что в этом обсуждении даже не упоминаются так называемые «временные линии». Их вполне уместно вспомнить. Среди них не так уж и редко встречаются круговые, винтовые и другие аналогичные линии времени. И поскольку время «движется» по своей временной линии, то появляются вращающиеся чувства.

Глаза, голова, плечи, таз, тело, руки, ноги

Rob: My own reflection on why it works is that many people, when anxious, report they are “spinning out of control” or some other description that includes spinning. People who are in a panic will often flap their hands (“in a bit of a flap”) and their hands flap in a slight circle. As an experiment in a couple of cases I have asked someone to “flap anxiously,” watch what direction their hands were flapping, and then ask them to flap them in the other direction. Instantly the anxiety feeling dissipates. So if your world is spinning out of control just spin it the other way.

Почему же одни руки? В соответствии с эмоциональным состоянием вращаются все части тела:

--глаза в орбитах
--голова на шее в нескольких плоскостях
--плечи относительно корпуса
--верхняя част корпуса относительно таза
--таз
--ноги выдают многие сочетанные в суставах и относительно независимые вращения
--руки аналогично ногам, но и еще богаче, на движения кистей и пальцев

…другое дело, что обнаружит в реальности в контексте эмоциональных переживаний очень очень непросто.

Re: Different Ways to Spin Feelings: A Discussion with Rob Voyle



Steve: Interesting. Again this may be the spinning of the words they are saying to themselves, in contrast to the path of the resulting feeling — something to explore further.

Rob: I have found that spinning the feeling and resolving the negative mantra has been highly effective in treating most anxieties and phobias, especially when the client has no awareness of a precipitating event for such anxiety or phobias.

Steve: I think there is probably seldom a precipitating event in anxiety; that it is a cumulative generalization based on repeatedly hearing parents or other adults saying things like, “Watch out!” in a high pitched, rapid “urgent” voice in contexts of danger. The urgent tonality is something that is learned unconsciously, and tends to remain unconscious unless attended to.

Rob: When the person does report a precipitating event such as an auto accident etc. I will use the movie theater phobia cure to deal with that specific event.

Steve: Sounds good; that is probably actually a separate process, but easy for a client to confuse with anxiety.

Rob: I don’t use any formal hypnosis in any of the steps. I used to add a brief relaxation exercise that had elements of trance when resolving the negative mantra, to create a relaxed state, but found I don’t need to do that.

With regard to spinning a feeling, the best experience was just after I had seen you demonstrate it. I was conducting a coach training and was waiting with a couple of participants for the rest of the group to return from an exercise. I took just a couple of minutes to demonstrate and have them experience spinning an anxious feeling, and then the rest of the group arrived and we went on to other things.

One of the people who had done the brief exercise had to have an MRI several months later and he realized as he was being prepped to go into the tunnel that he was claustrophobic and began to get quite anxious, at which point he remembered what he had done in the exercise and spun his anxiety in the opposite direction; the anxiety disappeared and he was able to comfortably have the MRI.

Steve: Others have reported successfully using the spinning feelings process for something that we would usually classify as a phobia. Again this would be something to explore further, to find out if spinning feelings is a valid alternative method for a phobia, or if some apparent phobias actually have the structure of anxiety.

Further Resources:
Spinning Feelings and Voice Tempo Shift methods, from Nick Kemp

http://realpeoplepress.com/blog/some-great-new-methods

The PTSD Training – a complete online course in effective methods for resolving the many aspects of Complex PTSD. Includes instruction and demo of Spinning Feelings.

http://steveandreasptsdtraining.com/membership-signup/

Releasing PTSD: The Client sessions – a complete demonstration of working with a client with PTSD. Includes demo of Spinning Feelings.

http://releasingptsd.com/membership-signup/

Физическое вращение, мета физическое, символическое, а

Steve: Interesting. Again this may be the spinning of the words they are saying to themselves, in contrast to the path of the resulting feeling — something to explore further.

Физическое вращение, мета физическое вращение (например, сигнальное вращение), символическое вращение, аллегорическое вращение, метафорическое вращение.


Отслеживание «вращения»/вращения есть вариант EMDR

Rob: I have found that spinning the feeling and resolving the negative mantra has been highly effective in treating most anxieties and phobias, especially when the client has no awareness of a precipitating event for such anxiety or phobias.

«Вращение» = отслеживание любого вращения вниманием есть вариант EMDR.

«Вращают» то, что мы называем ощущение-чувства и ощуще

With regard to spinning a feeling, the best experience was just after I had seen you demonstrate it. I was conducting a coach training and was waiting with a couple of participants for the rest of the group to return from an exercise. I took just a couple of minutes to demonstrate and have them experience spinning an anxious feeling, and then the rest of the group arrived and we went on to other things.

Большей частью они «вращают» то, что мы называем ощущение-чувства и ощущение-эмоции:

Якорение (23) Якорение: Ощущений, Чувств и/или Эмоций
http://metapractice.livejournal.com/387024.html


Онтологическое формирование ВЧ + единый алгоритм

...sent me an email with great detail about his experience in using the Spinning Feelings process that may explain why some people have found closed loops, while others have found spirals. His comments stimulated a number of thoughts and responses in me, the kind of collegial exploration that I love, and that happens all too seldom in the field. For readability, I have made this into a dialogue between us, which Rob has checked over and approved.

(1) Если «вращающееся» чувство требуется основательно формировать с целью его утилизации, - это значит исходный «вращающийся» феномен, который используют Андреас и Роб, фиговый. Но, для вращающегося ч. есть множество мощнейших исходных феноменов!

(2) Уже само тело человека дает основания и для круговых, и для спиральных «плоских», и для спиральных «цилиндрических» чувств.

(3) По «праву» индивидуального разнообразия любой человек имеет свободу формировать опыт любых вариантов своего вр. чувства (ВЧ).

(4) Более оптимален онтологических подход к формированию разнообразия вращающихся ч. При этом будет ценным найти единый алгоритм/правило формирования ВЧ, из которого можно получить все остальные варианты.

Внешняя метафора «звёздных чувств»

Rob: I have been “spinning feelings” since you demonstrated it briefly in Winter Park some years back (2009). I ask people, “What direction does it travel, where does it begin and where does it go to.” (What’s its path)? Most people have no trouble with this question.

«Большинство не имеют проблем» - с лобовым вопросом о своём ВЧ это не критерий.
Требуется найти самые первые пресуппозиции для введения темы ВЧ для конкретного субъекта (и для всех других субъектов в принципе).

Для этого самый сильный ход найти для ВЧ свою «звезду Бейтсона» - ключевую метафору, которая подключает к реагированию субъекта мощные пласты его опыта.

И конечно, «звёздная» метафора вращающегося чувства должна быть обязательно внешней метафорой. – указывать на какой-то внешний аналог.

Вращающиеся чувства не требуют гипнотизма!

Rob: When I ask, “What color is it?” many people say “I don’t know,” to which I promptly respond, “Close your eyes and take a look. What color is it?” Everyone has been able to report a color. My tone is quite definite, similar to Andy Austin’s when he gets people to close their eyes and tell him what they are standing on in a metaphor of movement elicitation.

Откровенный гипнотизм в работе с моделью, которая гипнотизма в таких дозах не требует, есть откровенная халява.

Работа с ВЧ требует двух важных факторов с первых шагов

--определение контролируемой экологичной локализации
--задание правильного масштаба для ВЧ

Наведенные декодером вращающиеся чувства

Rob: Then I ask, “Which way is it spinning — clockwise or anti-clockwise? Sometimes they will demonstrate it spinning with a finger; other times not. Again if they don’t know, I ask them to close their eyes and have a look. I don’t concern myself with whether it is clockwise or anticlockwise from my or their perspective, it is simply their reference point so they can spin it in the opposite direction. It may be ambiguous to us but it does not seem ambiguous to the client.

(1) Для установления/решения проблемы для кого субъект показывает вращение своих вращающийся чувств требуется ввести и в отношении вращающихся чувств:

--понятие тебе вращения – это когда показывают вращение, рассчитанное на субъекта
--себе вращение – это когда показ делают, имея ввиду только самого себя

(2) Для достоверных экспериментов с ВЧ требуется обязательно сторонний наблюдатель и/или + анализ видеозаписи. Ибо, эффекты ВЧ могут быть довольно просто специально или нечаянно наведены оператором. Например, году в 85 я экспериментировал с начальными идеями декодера и в беседе по поводу исследования конкретного субъекта тестом люшера выдал ему всю коммуникацию/организовал собственную экспрессию в форме декодера с круговой траекторией. Круг был размером с субъекта, сидящего на стуле.
Через двадцать минут субъект попросил прилечь на медицинскую кушетку, потому что его некая непонятная сила стала МЕДЛЕННО вращать во фрактальной плоскости.

"Вращащиеся чувства" есть вариант EMDR

About 40% of the clients I see in private practice come with anxiety issues and/or panic attacks. To date I have used the following exercise with these clients and had 100% success in producing substantial improvements with just a single session of getting the client to practice these processes.

Указывается, что «вращающиеся чувства» (ВЧ) в первую очередь применяются к жалобам клиентов на тревогу и панику. Другая техника, которая первоочередная для тревоги и паники есть EMDR. Т.е. мы имеем косвенное подтверждение в отношении механизма эффективности ВЧ. Он есть emdr-подобный механизм.

These methods can be used not only for phobias, anxiety, and panic attacks, but also for many food issues and other compulsions, jealousy, anger, and other problems where the person feels overwhelmed by intense feelings.

Фобии, тревоги, панические атаки, ревность, гнев - везде, где существует перегруженность сильными чувствами. Для всех таких случаев универсально работает EMDR. И оказывается, работают «вращающиеся чувства».

Совпадение.


Edited at 2015-08-04 10:10 am (UTC)

Пресуппозиции к формированию Spinning Feelings

When I first trained with Richard Bandler in the 1990s, I instantly warmed to many of the tools in the NLP tool set, and especially to how changing visual and auditory representations could make dramatic changes in a person’s perceptions and feelings. In one of the first demonstrations I saw he began to talk about “spinning feelings,” which at that time I thought seemed pretty strange. Little did I know that this technique would later become one of the main tools I would use in private practice with clients. In a demonstration with a client with troubling feelings, Richard would have them close their eyes, and ask them to gesture with their finger or hand to indicate their answer to his questions (Try this yourself with a problem feeling to get an experience of this process):

Ну, если закрыть свои глаза и говорить о своих плохих чувствах/ощущениях, жестикулируя рукой или пальцем, то в таком раскладе возможны типовые анатомически обусловленные паттерны движений. Из всего несколько. И среди них самый выразительный есть вращение. Вращение руки в кисти, вращение пальцев и т.д.

Получается картина, подобная демонстрационной установке модели КГД на БиГовских семинарах вопросом: «Какого цвета верхний глаз у светофора?»

Или в варианте для вращающихся чувств – опишите свои антиресурсные чувства с помощью движений руки/пальцев (закрытые глаза в данном случае являются простым средством концентрации на заданном).

Затем, субъекту предложат осознать, что его руки совершают вращательные движения.

Затем, субъекту предложат найти свои проблемные «вращающиеся чувства».

Манипулировать чувствами как материальным объектом

Хм, но разве такое подведение не гораздо менее ээ манипулятивно, нежели внушение увидеть "верхний глаз светофора"?

Кажется должна работать вот такая логика без всякого гипнотизма:
– простейшим и первейшим интерфейсом изменения внутреннего являются те же самые движения, какими мы манипулируем внешними объектами
– если таковые движения/жесты есть круговые, значит наиболее результативна будет манипуляция внутренним содержимым по круговым траекториям

Re: Манипулировать чувствами как материальным объектом

Хм, но разве такое подведение не гораздо менее ээ манипулятивно, нежели внушение увидеть "верхний глаз светофора"?

Манипуляция в этом случае заключается в том, что субъекту отказывают в осознании генеральной идеи. Могло бы как всё происходить:

--субъекту говорят - проверь как много вращений среди всех твоих движений
--а теперь согласись, что вращающие движения сказываются на твоих ощущениях.
--а теперь найди эти вращающиеся движения

...вот так бы не было никаких манипуляций.

Кажется должна работать вот такая логика без всякого гипнотизма: – простейшим и первейшим интерфейсом изменения внутреннего являются те же самые движения, какими мы манипулируем внешними объектами – если таковые движения/жесты есть круговые, значит наиболее результативна будет манипуляция внутренним содержимым по круговым траекториям

Могла бы. Но, её нет.



Re: Манипулировать чувствами как материальным объектом

"Коммерсанты, сэр" :) Так каждому субъекту раскрывать, так придётся на каждый новый семинар по новой модели придумывать :)

Re: Манипулировать чувствами как материальным объектом

Да.

Не случайно свои воскресные школы моделирования я предварил воскресной школой "NLP ftf" - нлп за два гроша (был такой старый фильм - "Козлёнок за два гроша".

Может быть так назовём наше моделирование? Моделирование за два гроша?

:)

Re: Манипулировать чувствами как материальным объектом

Норм подход/название :) Только тогда ещё острее встаёт вопрос правильного выбора целевых групп.

Re: Манипулировать чувствами как материальным объектом

Ну, моделирование за два гроша эквивалентно с открытым кодом моделированию.

Это Аилев проработал весьма чётко на опенмете.

Т.е. оно обращено ко всем. И первые его производные идут в сеть в открытом виде.

Ну, а вторые уже могут быть монетизированы.

Пресуппозиции для формирования кинестетической после

“Where in your body does the feeling start?” . . . “Where does the feeling move to?”

Ну, теперь следуют пресуппозиции для формирования кинестетической последовательности из вращающихся чувств.

Два масштаба вращающихся чувств

After determining the path of the feeling, he would ask them to indicate whether the feeling moved in a clockwise or counter- clockwise direction as it moved along this path. . . .

И вот, очень интересный момент. Вращающееся чувство может быть двух самых важных масштабов. Пусть, аллегорически наше вращающееся чувство будет подобно волчку:

--тогда, волчок, который крутится в одном месте в теле – это первый масштаб
--и теперь наш волчок совершает движение по большой замкнутой траектории в соответствии с общим маршрутом своей кинестетической последовательности – это второй масштаб

Карго-нелперы

At the time I wondered whether this was a hypnotic suggestion to the client, but since then I have found that in nearly every instance when using this approach a client can easily notice that the feeling was definitely moving in one of these two directions, clearly indicating this with their hand gestures.

Ну да, это последняя генерация зарубежных нелперов – описанная манипуляция не есть гипноз.

Изменение направления вращения = идея изменений

Then Richard would ask the client to reverse the direction of the spin (along the same path) and to tell him what they noticed was different when they did that. . . .

При таком подходе к этому моменту мы получаем идею «изменения направления вращения» В РОЛИ ОБЩЕЙ ИДЕИ ИЗМЕНЕНИЙ»!!!


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